Major kontra löjtnant

[Froddan]

Varför är generallöjtnant av högre rang än generalmajor då major är av högra rang än löjtnant? Tycker det verkar väldigt ologiskt.

 

Någon som vet?

Edited January 3, 2004 by Froddan

[Mattias]

Jag har för mig att generallöjtnant förr hette generalÖVERSTElöjtnant men att ordet överste senare rationaliserades bort. Överstelöjtnant är som bekant högre än major därav den kanske konstiga ordningen i gradsystemet.

[ekblomboy]

betyder inte löjtnant typ medhjälpare lr dyl?

[Dahlberg]

Jo, det var väl därför rangen under generalöverste blev just generalöverstelöjtnant, eftersom de var "underhuggare" (Stf) till generalöversterna... Och precis som Mattias skrev så togs löjtnant bort i generalöverstelöjtnant, så att det bara blev generallöjtnant, vilket blev följden att generalmajor stannade kvar på sin plats som lägre rang, men behöll sitt namn, som i sig är ologiskt...

 

Från Susning:

"Löjtnant betydde ursprungligen ställföreträdare (jfr. generallöjtnant och överstelöjtnant) men har haft den nuvarande betydelsen sedan början av 1600-talet."

[Froddan]

Hmmm... då tror jag att jaj förstår.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Glömde tacka för svaren.

Edited January 3, 2004 by Froddan

[Dahlberg]

Eftersom vi ändå är inne på grader, så har jag bara ett litet OT-tillägg, i och med att jag sökte efter "Generallöjtnant" på Susning.nu, så blev jag länkad till Officersgrader, där en grafik som jag har gjort, kom fram... Denna grafik har jag ritat till SoldF.com's sida... Lite förvånad blev man ju, det är ju kul att saker man har gjort, sprids och uppskattas!

[Raffe]

Eftersom vi ändå är inne på grader, så har jag bara ett litet OT-tillägg, i och med att jag sökte efter "Generallöjtnant" på Susning.nu, så blev jag länkad till Officersgrader, där en grafik som jag har gjort, kom fram... Denna grafik har jag ritat till SoldF.com's sida... Lite förvånad blev man ju, det är ju kul att saker man har gjort, sprids och uppskattas! 

Överfurir och fanjunkare - jaha ja. Vad sägs om lite redigering/uppdatering?

[Dahlberg]

Jag orkar inte ens ta upp en diskussion om överfurir och fanjunkare... Sök på forumet bland de otaliga gradbetecknings-trådarna, så ska du finna kunskap... Då ska du bl.a. få lära dej att det finns personer som nu för tiden innehar dessa grader, trots att man inte utnäms till dessa... Och att det går att få dessa grader i utlandstjänst...

[Raffe]

Jag orkar inte ens ta upp en diskussion om överfurir och fanjunkare... Sök på forumet bland de otaliga gradbetecknings-trådarna, så ska du finna kunskap... Då ska du bl.a. få lära dej att det finns personer som nu för tiden innehar dessa grader, trots att man inte utnäms till dessa... Och att det går att få dessa grader i utlandstjänst...

Du har redan svarat - tack så mycket

[Torak]

Jo, det var väl därför rangen under generalöverste blev just generalöverstelöjtnant, eftersom de var "underhuggare" (Stf) till generalöversterna... Och precis som Mattias skrev så togs löjtnant bort i generalöverstelöjtnant, så att det bara blev generallöjtnant, vilket blev följden att generalmajor stannade kvar på sin plats som lägre rang, men behöll sitt namn, som i sig är ologiskt...

 

Från Susning:

"Löjtnant betydde ursprungligen ställföreträdare (jfr. generallöjtnant och överstelöjtnant) men har haft den nuvarande betydelsen sedan början av 1600-talet."

"Löjtnant" kommer ju från franskans "Lieutenant", vilket bokstavligt översatt betyder "platstagare".

[106]

Det är lätt att missförstå sådant eftersom vi ser graderna linjärt (menig-general), inte att det egentligen är flera olika kategorier, därav streck för gruppbefäl, pixstjärnor för plutonbefäl, stjärnor för kompanibefäl/officerare, krona + stjärnor för regementsofficerare och stora stjärnor för generalspersoner.

 

Tyvärr har jag inte lyckats använda någon tabellfunktion på forumet vilket skulle göra det lättare att förstå men jag tror andra har hunnit förklara det redan.

Edited January 3, 2004 by 106

[MKS GB]

Kapten är ju kompanichef (krig) och under honom Adj som är Lt.

Sedan kommer batchefen Öv som har sin Övlt under sig

Sist kommer stor Chefen Generalen, också han har sin GenLt..

 

Alltså under varje chef finns någon typ av Lt. hjälpredan..

[Lt P]

Varför är generallöjtnant av högre rang än generalmajor då major är av högra rang än löjtnant? Tycker det verkar väldigt ologiskt.

 

Någon som vet?

 

Generalfänrik låter ju inte fullt så snitsigt

[gpd]

När vi använde den gamla oscarianska amiralsgalonen ( före 1/7 03 ) så kallades amiralerna vanvördigt för fläskfänrikar p g a den stora öglan......

 

 

GPD som tycker den stora galonen var finare än våra nya engelskinspirerade amiralsgaloner.

[106]

och major kallas ibland kronfänrik.

 

106, som också tyckte bättre om våra svenska galoner.

Det enda som var bra med den senaste tiden ändringar var att Öv1 blev brigadgeneral och flottan fick samma gradbeteckninagr på kragspegel m/58 som resten.

[Froddan]

Denna tråd plus att försöka förstå värnplikten och dess system med betäckningar (kopral etc.), gruppchefer, befälsutbildningsbetäckningarna kp, pb, gp och deras samband samt funktion har gjort mig minst sagt förvirrad.

 

Jag som trodde det militära var strikt och logiskt organiserat. ;)

 

Men tack för svaren alla vise män här på soldf, jag tror jag börjar förstå nu.

 

 

 

Edit: "befälsutbildningsbetäckningarna" - dagens längsta ord månntro?

Edited January 4, 2004 by Froddan

[KD803]

Denna tråd plus att försöka förstå värnplikten och dess system med betäckningar

Jag hoppas att du menar beteckningar. Betäckningar är något helt annat som jag hoppas att det inte finns något system för inom FM. Möjligen att flottan skulle kunna ha något

[The Swede]

Denna tråd plus att försöka förstå värnplikten och dess system med betäckningar

Jag hoppas att du menar beteckningar. Betäckningar är något helt annat som jag hoppas att det inte finns något system för inom FM. Möjligen att flottan skulle kunna ha något

Det fanns väl förut inom kavalleriet men dom har ju skjutit hästarna nu.

 

The Swede

[Froddan]

Denna tråd plus att försöka förstå värnplikten och dess system med betäckningar

Jag hoppas att du menar beteckningar. Betäckningar är något helt annat som jag hoppas att det inte finns något system för inom FM. Möjligen att flottan skulle kunna ha något

 

Beteckningar, ja.

 

Det är ett under att jag fick MVG i svenska. B)

[The Swede]

Beteckningar, ja. 

 

Det är ett under att jag fick MVG i svenska. B)

Du kanske övade betäckningar med lärarinnan. :P

[dxl]

Jag som trodde det militära var strikt och logiskt organiserat.  ;)

oj oj oj

 

vänta bara tills du rycker in i lumpen

och när du sedan går med i HV :P

[Kimster]

Jag vet inte men det har redan klargjorts kanske...

 

Kortfattat

 

Löjtnant betyder "ställföreträdare" vilket innebär Överstelöjtnant och Generallöjtnant är högre än blablaMajor.

 

Det har inget med att göra att Major e högra än löjtnant enligt t.ex armégrader, mer än att löjtnant är ställföreträdare för kaptenen.

[JTS]

och major kallas ibland kronfänrik.

Ja, fast det är ett missförstånd.

 

Kronfänrik är den äldste av fänrikarna.

 

Att det skulle vara en major är bara att någon har övertolkat själva smeknamnet.

[Froddan]

Jag vet inte men det har redan klargjorts kanske...

 

Kortfattat

 

Löjtnant betyder  "ställföreträdare"    vilket innebär  Överstelöjtnant och Generallöjtnant är högre än  blablaMajor.

 

Det har inget med att göra att Major e högra än löjtnant enligt t.ex armégrader, mer än att löjtnant är ställföreträdare för kaptenen.

 

Okej, det låter mer rimligt. Får tro på det.

[SBP]

Denna tråd plus att försöka förstå värnplikten och dess system med betäckningar

Jag hoppas att du menar beteckningar. Betäckningar är något helt annat som jag hoppas att det inte finns något system för inom FM. Möjligen att flottan skulle kunna ha något

Det fanns väl förut inom kavalleriet men dom har ju skjutit hästarna nu.

 

The Swede

Lördagsnattssyssla.... Vissa sitter här och snackar om det, medan vissa tillämpar.... ;)

[KD803]

Vi kanske surfade lite i återhämtningsfasen? :P

[SBP]

Det är ju möjligt, men...

 

Jag garvade så tårarna rann när jag läste det iaf...

[Hans Engström]

Fast lite har ni missat nu.

 

Jag har den följande texten sparad på hårddisken

sen länge och minns inte vart den kom ifrån (via någon på TankNet, om jag inte missminer mig helt). Hoppas Engelskan går bra som forum språk den här gången. Tillägg i bold och på svenska.

A Soldier is one who serves in the Army and fights for pay. The name originates from Latin word soldus, short for the classical Latin word solidus.  Solidus was an ancient Roman coin used for paying soldiers. 

 

The word Officer dates back to the kind of English spoken in the middle ages. It derived from the middle Latin word  officarius and was first used in a military context in 1565.   It takes root from office, a word which was first documented around 1250 and was derived from the classical Latin word  officium meaning "service", "duty", "function", or "business."  To be an 'officer', one had to be specially commissioned by the King or sovereign. The word commission dates back to 1344. It comes from the classical Latin word commissionem meaning "delegation of business."  In other words the sovereign was delegating certain powers, authority and responsibility to those considered fit for it.   Such a man it turns out, had to be legally defined as a "gentleman" meaning, according to English law of that era, that he had no regular occupation as a source of livelihood but lived instead on feudal office, church resources, rents or inheritance. When the term "officers and men" is used what it really implies is that some are qualified as 'gentlemen' while others are not. 'Gentlemen' could not be drafted off the streets but others could.  The national order of precedence placed titled nobles first followed by untitled military officers (by commission) followed by "gentlemen entitled to bear arms."   Given this social structure one can appreciate the concept of "non-commissioned" officers, men who rose through the ranks and were 'warranted' to lead other men based on experience and valor, but were nevertheless not considered socially fit for 'commission'.  However, in feudal France and imperial Germany the distinction between 'noble' and 'officer' was inapparent because one had to be of noble birth in the feudal hierarchy to be qualified for 'commission' as an officer. 

 

The word Army was documented in 1386, and is derived from the Old French word armée, from the Latin word armata meaning "armed force," from the more classical Latin word armata, meaning "to arm," or "act of arming."   Originally used in reference to land and sea expeditions it only began to be specifically used to refer to "land forces” in 1786.  

 

Private - The earliest record of this word dates to 1384, derived from the classical Latin word privatus, meaning to "set apart, belonging to oneself" (rather than the state or feudal lord).  The phrase Private soldier meaning "one below the rank of a non-commissioned officer" - also known as a common soldier - entered usage in 1579 when individual citizens gained the privilege of enlisting or entering private contracts to serve as private soldiers in army units.  It later became known as privateer in 1664, from the term private man of war, as in volunteer or buccaneer. 

 

It should be noted that various British military regiments and corps refer to their 'privates' by different names. For example, a Guardsman is a private in a Guards regiment, a Gunner is a private in the Artillery regiment, and a Rifleman is a private in an Infantry rifle regiment. A Sapper is a private in the Engineer regiment; a Signalman is a private in the Signals Regiment, while a Trooper is a private in a Cavalry (or Recce) regiment.  The word 'Sapper' comes from sap, meaning to "wear away." Recorded in 1598, it implied digging a trench toward enemy lines. It is derived from the french word saper, or sappe meaning a "spade," from the Latin word sappa.

Jämför här konstaplar och dylikt i artilleriet i Sverige.

A so-called 'Bombardier' is an Artillery Corporal.  The name is derived from bombard, a 15th century term of French origin, from the word bombarder, also written bombarde, meaning "mortar" or "catapult."  A  'Lance-Bombardier' is an Artillery Lance Corporal. 

 

Lance-Corporal - The phrase 'Lance-Corporal ' is derived from the obsolete old Italian word lancepesade meaning "officer of lowest rank."  It comes from lancia spezzata literally meaning a "broken lance" but used, somewhat derisively, to refer to an "old soldier."  The term "Lance" entered documented use in the 12th century and is said to have been derived from the Old French word lance, from Latin lancea meaning "light spear."   Some consider it of Celtic origin. 

 

Corporal  - The earliest record of this noun dates to 1579, reportedly derived from the Middle French word corporal, which was itself related to the Italian word  caporale. "A corporal," is derived from capo "chief, head," which comes from the classical Latin  word  caput "head."   A "Corporal" was described as such because he was in charge of a body of troops.   Conceivably the term was linked to the Italian word corpo, also from the classical Latin word corps meaning, "body."  Some authorities think corps  (meaning Body) is the original source while the word caput  (meaning Head) influenced its usage. Hence "Head of Body

 

Sergeant - The earliest record of this word dates back to the 12th century.  It comes from "servant,” from the Old French word sergent, from the medieval Latin word servientum (from serviens) meaning "servant, vassal, soldier" (also used in late Latin as  "public official").  At that time they were servants to Knights.  In classical Latin the word servientem meant "serving," from servire "to serve."   The use of the term to describe a "non-commissioned military officer" was first recorded in 1548.  It should be noted that the rank of Sergeant used to be a much more important rank than it is in modern times.  It was adopted by the Police in the UK in 1839, ie "Police Sergeant."  The compound term 'Sergeant-Major'  - which now refers to the senior enlisted soldier in a battalion, regiment, group, wing or higher.formation  - actually dates back to 1573.

 

Lieutenant - The word was first recorded around 1378, from the Old French word lieu tenant meaning "substitute," literally a "placeholder," from lieu "place" and tenant, from tenir meaning "to hold." The concept is refers to a "substitute" for higher authority, such as in the phrase "I spoke to one of his lieutenants ie the officer acting for his superior, or in his place.” Over the years the rank has been further stratified into "3rd Lieutenant", "2nd Lieutenant",  "Sub-Lieutenant" and "1st Lieutenant", depending on the branch of service or the country or era.  The term is also used to qualify middle and higher ranking officers who act as "substitutes" for their immediate superiors in rank.  Examples include Lieutenant Colonel (ie substitute for a Colonel), Lieutenant Commander (ie substitute for a Navy Commander), Lieutenant General (ie substitute for a General.)  Many speakers of 'British English' still pronounce the word 'lieutenant' as if it is 'leftenant' rather than 'loo-tenant.'  The reason is because as far back as the 14th century there was an alternative word written as 'leftenant' which meant the same thing.   Its pronunciation has persisted through the centuries even though it is now formally written as 'lieutenant' to reflect its French origins.  For many centuries, the company - commanded by a Captain - was the highest level of tactical organization for troops.  The deputy to the Captain was known as "Captain-Lieutenant". When infantry companies evolved into battalions, "Captain-Lieutenant" was shortened to Lieutenant.  Throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, Lieutenants remained Company 2ic (second-in-command).  However, with the advent of the 20th century, Captains ceded command of Companies to Majors, and became Company 2ic, while Lieutenants became platoon commanders.

 

In the British military, an Ensign was the lowest rank among commissioned officers in the infantry from the 18th century until 1871 when the rank was abolished and replaced by Second Lieutenant.  It is still used as the lowest commissioned officer rank in the navies of some countries eg USA. The word derives from the Latin word insignia which means emblem or banner. Any warrior who carried his lord's ensign or flag became known as an ensign bearer. Later on it was shortened to Ensign

Fänrik=Fähnrich(tyskt)=fanbärare

 

Captain - Since 1375 the word Captain has been used to mean "one who stands at the head of others."   It comes from the Old French word capitaine, from the Latin word capitaneus, meaning "chief," or capitaneus, which means "prominent” or “chief."  As may be suspected this latter phrase comes from the classical Latin word caput  (from capitis) meaning, "head."   The use in a military context to refer to an "officer who commands a company" (ie the rank between Lieutenant and Major) began in 1567.  At that time a company was the basic unit of military strength.

 

Major - The word entered documented usage in the 13th century and apparently comes from the classical Latin word major (from magjos), which is a shortened form of the word magnus meaning "large, great".  "Major" derives from the medieval Latin word  major meaning "chief officer, magnate, superior person," which was itself derived from the classical Latin word  major, referring to "an elder, adult."  The use as a noun in a military context began in 1643, as a shortened form of the French word sergent-major, (or greater sergeant) which was a much higher rank (ie an older servant or public official) then than it is today.  In fact the Sergeant Major - at that time a field officer next in rank to the Lieutenant Colonel - was the second or third in command of a whole regiment or similar sized unit.  His role was to form the companies into a solid regimental unit and keep them in proper formation for battle or route march.   He also had administrative roles as an adjutant.  The "Sergeant" component of "Sergeant-Major" was dropped in the 17th and 18th centuries as regiments became formalized as an administrative standard.  The "Major" became the regimental staff officer while the "Sergeant-Major" continued in the role of "Head Sergeant" over enlisted men as it remains to this day, otherwise known as 'Warrant Officer'. 

 

Colonel - The military word 'Colonel'  - a modified version of the Italian word colonnella - was first formally recorded in 1548, although usage certainly precedes that date. It comes from the word coronell, derived from the middle French word coronel, which was also used in Spanish.  Back in 1505, King Ferdinand of Spain reorganized his army and created twenty units - called colunelas or columns - out of part of it.  Each colunela comprised 1000 to 1250 men broken down into companies. The commander was known as cabo de colunela, meaning head of the column, or Colonel.  Because the new units were royal or "crown" units they were also called coronelias (after the Latin word corona, meaning crown) and their commanders were known as coronels.  In fact any unit commanded by a Colonel was known as coronelias.   In Italian, colonella meant the "commander of a column of soldiers at the head of a regiment," and is derived from the phrase  compagna colonella meaning "little column company," from the classical Latin  word  columna, meaning "pillar."  The French copied the idea later on in the 16th century, which then formed the basis of regimental reorganization in the 17th century.   The Royal Army also adopted the regimental structure by copying the French.  This is how the rank of "Colonel" entered the British Army.    The English spelling was reportedly modified in 1583 to conform with Italian but the pronunciation - to this day - in commonwealth countries is kernal, adapted from the French/Spanish word coronel.

 

What is now known as "Colonel" used to be known more fully as "Colonel of the Regiment" back in the days when Colonels - usually men of high birth - owned and commanded regiments. At that time a regiment consisted of three wings - one commanded by the Colonel and the other two by his Lieutenant Colonel and Major.  When, in the early part of the 18th century, regiments became fused as unified fighting battalions, Lieutenant-Colonels became substantive battalion (regiment) commanders while their Colonels assumed a more ceremonial and political role - reflected these days as Staff Appointments. In the 19th century, regiments later differentiated into multi-battalion units each with a Lt. Col. as Battalion commanding officer while the 'Colonel of the Regiment' - where the title still exists - handled policy and ceremonial matters.

 

Brigadier (One Star) - The military word 'Brigadier' (ie commander of a brigade) was documented in 1678 and is of French origin.  The earlier word Brigade - as a subdivision or battle group of an army - entered usage in 1637, and comes from the French word brigade, derived from the Italian word brigata meaning "troop, crowd, gang."   Brigata comes from brigare meaning a "brawl, fight," and is derived from the Celtic word briga which refers to "strife, quarrel."    To place it in context, the related word 'brigand'  which was first used around 1400, referred to a "lightly armed foot soldier," and was derived from the Old French word brigand, which meant a  "foot soldier," as in the Italian word brigante meaning "trooper, skirmisher," from the word brigare.  It was often used in the context of men who lived by pillaging, because at that time there was little difference between professional mercenary armies and armed criminal organizations.

 

Until 1922, the British Army used the term "Brigadier-General" but chose to revert to the less wordy term "Brigadier."  

 

Lieutenant General.(Three Stars) - The commissioned officer rank just below a full General (Four stars), and immediately above a Major-General (Two Stars).   (Deputy to - or substitute for - the General). 

 

General - Although the word "General" is quite old, dating back to 1300 from the classical Latin  word  generalis meaning "relating to all, of a whole class", its use in the context of the "commander of an army" began in 1576 as a shortening of the word captain general.  Such a Captain was considered to be in 'general' command of the "whole army" rather than part of it.  Captain General is of French origin, from the phrase Capitaine Général.   The Italian title Generalissimo (adopted by Josef Stalin of 20th century Russia and Chiang Kai-shek of 20th century China - later Taiwan) was documented in 1621 and is theoretically equivalent to Field Marshal.  As it was in most parts of Africa, European nations prior to the 16th century only formed armies when they needed them.  The permanent Army Commander was, therefore, the King.   In crisis he would typically appoint a Captain-General to command.   As the term "Colonel" became widely accepted some Kings referred to their commanders as "Colonel General" - a very senior rank that was widely used in WW2 Germany - just above a 4-star General and just below a Field Marshal - and is still used in countries like Russia.   However, "Captain-General" has - since the 18th century - become known simply as "General."  The Captains-General often got preoccupied with state and ceremonial matters and so the real operational Army Commander in the field was often his deputy - the Lieutenant-General.   Lt. Generals were temporary ranks until the 17th century when they became formalized.  On the other hand, the rank of "Sergeant Major General” was preserved for the chief administrative officer - or Chief of Staff - of the Army, whose tenure of office might even be limited to a specific campaign or war.    The 'Sergeant' portion was, however, dropped in the 17th century, which is why the rank is known today as Major General.    For example, under Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector, Britain was divided into eleven military districts each under the command of a Major General.  The Colonels typically reported to the Sergeant Major General and Lieutenant General but in some instances of large army formations where there were just too many regiments, 'Brigades' were created - under Brigadiers - each comprised of three or more regiments (or battalions). 

 

Marshal -  A baton is the traditional symbol of a Field Marshal.  The word "Marshal" originated in 1218, and is said to derived from the old Frenchword  mareschal, meaning a "stable officer, horse tender, groom."   This in turn came from the Latin word mariscaluis, from the proto-germanic word markhaz meaning " horse" plus skalkaz meaning "servant."   The phrase "Marshal" entered military usage in 1587 as a verb meaning, "to arrange for fighting."    The rank was introduced into the British Army in 1736.

 

Historically, a Field Marshal used to be subordinate to the Captain-General in the 16th and early 17th centuries.  At the time his role was to control Army logistics - an appointment that is now known as Quarter-Master-General. During the 17th century  'Field Marshal ' became the highest British military rank (with Five Stars), superior to a Four-Star General.  However, in 1995 it was phased out as a rank in peacetime Britain.

 

Klart som korvspad, heller hur?

Edited January 4, 2004 by Hans Engström

[Hans Engström]

Litet tillägg, C Royal Marines hade tills nyligen titeln Captain-General of Marines om jag inte helt missminer mig, nu är det det alltför vardagliga Commandant General Royal Marines