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JAS 39 Gripen i Indien


RR NSKY

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  • 10 months later...

Verkar som Dassault har problem i Indien med förhandlingarna med Indiska försvarsministeriet bl.a. om vilka företag som skall användas som leverantörer till de indiskbyggda Rafalerna (bara 18 skall byggas i Frankrike) samt Hindustan Aeronautics roll i affären. Om man inte syr ihop affären innan valet 2014 hotar indierna med att mer än halvera beställningen till 60 stycken Rafales.

 

The Press Trust of India quoted industry sources as saying that Dassault has requested from the Indian Ministry of Defence the freedom to decide the proportion of work to be done by HAL, versus private Indian companies. Last February, Dassault signed an MoU with Reliance Industry, India’s largest private-sector company, for collaboration in manufacturing.

 

An official told AIN that HAL needs to define a partner that will facilitate Tier 2 and 3 suppliers, or assume that responsibility itself. Proponents of HAL say that the government-owned company has far more experience in selecting suppliers for high-technology defense projects than private companies such as Reliance or Ta-ta.

 

One vendor noted that since India lacks the appropriate level of avionics and engine production capability, “there is no clarity on how value can be added by Indian industry and 50-percent offsets absorbed.” The MMRCA project does not fall within the new and more liberal defense offsets policy that permits them to be sourced from adjacent sectors such as homeland security and commercial aviation.

 

Elections are looming in 2014, and while reports have indicated the contract could be signed early next year, the government, fearing reprisals from opposition parties, is unlikely to proceed unless matters are ironed out in the next few months. One defense official suggested to AIN that if decisions are deferred beyond the election, the MMRCA requirement might be cut to around 60 aircraft as newer solutions–such as the Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft, and unmanned combat air vehicles–become available.

 

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2012-12-14/manufacturing-details-stall-franco-indian-mmcra-negotiations

 

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  • 2 months later...

Mer nyheter på samma tema som min förra post i denna tråden har nu sipprat ut från Indien. Det är ju känt att det är problem mellan i kontraktsskrivandet mellan Dassault (franska staten?) och HAL (indiska DRDO?) mht kunskapsöverföringen från Dassault et.al. till statliga Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) i Indien. För två veckor sedan höll styrelsemedlemmen R.K. Tyagi i HAL presskonferens i Aero India 2013 där han berörde detta :

 

http://livefist.blogspot.se/2013/02/hal-articulates-mmrca-challenges.html

 

It is well known that there have been hiccups in contract negotiations with Dassault Aviation for the Rafale as far as technology transfer to HAL is concerned. Last week, HAL chairman R.K. Tyagi touched upon some of those challenges in his presentation at the Aero India 2013 seminar. The two slides you see above are from that presentation. The first slide gives you the first real sense of just how big a challenge HAL is viewing the MMRCA license build as.


The second slide provides a sense of the technologies that HAL feels will accrue to itself and partner private sector companies through the transfer of technology process. Last week, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne had said that HAL would be lead integrator of the license-produced MMRCA aircraft in India, no matter what other partherships Dassault established inside or outside the country as far as kits and assemblies were concerned.

 

 

HAL verkar vilja ha all ToT (transfer of technology) oavsett vilka lokala företag Dassault har teamat upp med tidigare inför affären. Kan bli svårt för fransmännen beroende på vad de skrivit i sina tidigare kontrakt med lokala förmågor. Även med tanke på hur mycket ToT HAL har möjlighet att tillgodogöra sig per tidsenhet :Malaj:

 

Statlig skyddad verkstad är ju inte alltid den bästa grunden för kompetens, eller var jag stygg nu? Någon annan stygg herre eller dam sa innan MMRCA-affären avgjordes att de flygplanstillverkare som förlorar kommer att få stora problem men allra mest synd kommer det att vara om den som vinner ...

Edited by JohanGrön
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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/All-eyes-on-20bn-Rafale-deal-after-Choppergate/articleshow/18551010.cms

Quote

 

India will proceed with extreme caution while finalizing its biggest-ever defence deal till now, the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighter jets.

 

The long-drawn process to select French aviation major Dassault's Rafale fighter for the final commercial negotiations, which began 12 months ago, has seen its share of controversies, from "missing files'' to "dissent'' over the calculation of "life-cycle costs''.

 

Incidentally, the by now infamous Christian Michel, the London-based middleman who allegedly got 30 million euros out of the total 51 million euros paid as bribes in the AW-101 helicopter contract, also had an agreement with Dassault in the 1990s. But Michel and Dassault had parted ways after litigation over payment of commissions.

 

"Yes, we have to be careful with the MMRCA project, which should be inked towards the end of this year. We have to check and re-check everything,'' admitted a senior defence ministry official on Sunday.

 

Joint secretary (air acquisitions) in the defence ministry, Arun Kumar Bal, who is going to Italy to gather evidence in the VVIP helicopter contract, also heads the contract negotiation committee (CNC) in the long-delayed MMRCA project, under which the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition'', while the remaining 108 fighters will be manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics over six years.

 

The committee had run into some trouble in December 2011-January 2012 after two defence finance officials registered their dissent at the way the life-cycle costs - of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying - were being calculated

[...]

As per defence minister A K Antony, there will be "eight stages of scrutiny at different levels" after the CNC is concluded. But the rejected fighters are waiting in the wings, hoping to fly back into competition. British PM David Cameron, who arrives in India on Monday, for instance, has vowed to "encourage'' India to reconsider its decision of eliminating the Typhoon from the project.

Edited by JohanGrön
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Synd att inte Indien gör som Thailand, köper sex Gripar och om de är nöjda med dem köper fler. Det skulle troligtvis inte kosta dem mer än den här cirkusen och ge bättre resultat.

Fast Thailand köpte ju inte sex st Gripenplan som en slags utvärdering utan att först ha stött och blött alternativ. Anledning till att de inte köpte fler initialt var väl ekonomiskt.

 

Att Gripen skulle få en ny chans i Indien får nog ses som uteslutet. Rent praktiskt kan man väl också titta på att indierna var rätt nöjda med hur Mirage 2000 presterade i Kargil-kriget....

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Synd att inte Indien gör som Thailand, köper sex Gripar och om de är nöjda med dem köper fler. Det skulle troligtvis inte kosta dem mer än den här cirkusen och ge bättre resultat.

Fast Thailand köpte ju inte sex st Gripenplan som en slags utvärdering utan att först ha stött och blött alternativ. Anledning till att de inte köpte fler initialt var väl ekonomiskt.

 

Att Gripen skulle få en ny chans i Indien får nog ses som uteslutet. Rent praktiskt kan man väl också titta på att indierna var rätt nöjda med hur Mirage 2000 presterade i Kargil-kriget....

 

Sex Gripar är en stor affär för lilla Thailand men en rimlig utvärdering för stora Indien, sedan hade knappast Thailand fortsatt beställa om Griparna hade underpresterat.

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Dessutom är väl gripenflygplanen bara en (kanske inte så) liten del av ett större paket när det gäller Thailand. Förutom att de även köpt AEW-flygplan, stridsledningssystem, datalänksystem och sjömålsrobotar (och på så sätt räddat 50% av vårt flygvapens försvarsförmåga, genom att tvinga oss att behålla dem) så har jag fått intrycket av att satsningen även har syftat till att omvandla thailands försvarsmakt från en låg/mellanteknologisk organisation med starkt begränsad förmåga att möta yttre hot, till en mer högteknologisk och vass, och kostnadseffektiv krigsmaskin. Men det är bara en känsla jag fått, så ni får ta den bedömningen med en nypa salt.

 

Men jag är skeptisk till om ett köp av sex Gripen av Indien vire en kostnadseffektiv och bra utvärdering. För det första kostar det ju i runda slängar 6 miljarder kronor att köpa maskinerna, om de ska vara fabriksnya, för det andra så blir det ju 39C som levereras oavsett om de köper nya maskiner eller lånar/leasar dem. De maskiner som SAAB offererat finns ju inte i produktion, utan är baserade på NG-plattformen motsvarande våra kommande 39E.

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Sex Gripar är en stor affär för lilla Thailand men en rimlig utvärdering för stora Indien, sedan hade knappast Thailand fortsatt beställa om Griparna hade underpresterat.

I så fall så skulle väl indierna ha kunnat kräva att få leasa (eller rentav låna) några plan från respektive tillverkare för utvärdering? Med tanke på att det är köparens marknad idag kan man ju ställa krav, och affären är ju rätt stor.

Plan var ju i Indien och genomförde tester, så på sätt och vis så fick de ju testa systemem så sett.

 

 

Att köpa några plan för utvärdering såg nog indierna ingen anledning att göra.

Edited by Andtryggve
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http://ibnlive.in.com/news/too-early-to-consider-possibility-of-foul-play-in-rafale-fighter-jet-deal-antony/373870-3.html

 

New Delhi: Defence Minister AK Antony said on Tuesday it was "too early" to consider the possibility of foul play in a planned $10 billion deal with France's Dassault Aviation for Rafale war planes. India has threatened to scrap a $750 million deal for a dozen AgustaWestland helicopters after Italian police arrested the former head of parent company Finmeccanica, Giuseppe Orsi, last week for allegedly paying bribes to Indian politicians to win the contract.

The Rafale purchase, one of the world's largest defence deals, has come under increased scrutiny in the Indian media because of the Finmeccanica case. The allegations surrounding the AgustaWestland deal also hung over the visit by British Prime Minister David Cameron to India this week. After meeting PM Manmohan Singh, Cameron promised to assist India's investigation into the sale of the helicopters, which are manufactured in Britain.

Antony was responding to a question from Reuters at a news conference on whether the government was looking into any possibility of corruption in the deal with Rafale to buy 126 fighter jets, which is in the final stages of negotiation between Dassault and India.

"It is too early," he said, adding that there were many levels of scrutiny in the deal. "I can assure you one thing, as far as our government is concerned, regarding integrity, transparency, we will not compromise," he said. "We will go to any extent to take action," he said, if there was any evidence of corruption.

French President Francois Hollande said on a visit to India that his government was committed to deals being done according to "commercial rules" and France remained vigilant in the fight against corruption.

"We are working with Indian authorities, we have nothing to do with Finmeccanica and even less with the problems that they're having now," Eric Trappier, chief executive of Dassault Aviation, told reporters during Hollande's visit.
[...]
Several Indian newspapers have quoted a 2002 Paris court judgment that a British-based broker, Christian Michel, was employed by Dassault during a bid to sell India 10 Mirage 2000 jets. The court ruled that Dassault and Michel had parted ways by the time that deal was signed in 2000.

"Today there are only reports. We are very clear if for any deal, any foul play is found, we will take action," Antony said.

Michel is now accused by Italian prosecutors of funnelling bribes to Indian officials to swing the AgustaWestland helicopter deal.

 

Cameron is in India hoping to tap one of the world's fastest-growing major economies for new trade and investment opportunities, including in the defence sector.

 

The timing of Cameron's visit was not ideal, coming just after the AgustaWestland corruption allegations erupted. "I also conveyed to the prime minister our very serious concerns regarding allegations about unethical means used in securing the 2010 contract of the AgustaWestland helicopters," Singh told reporters after their meeting.

"I have sought full assistance from the UK in this case. Prime Minister David Cameron has assured me of the cooperation of his government in the investigation."

Cameron, speaking after Singh, said his government would respond to any request for information about the deal.

"I'm glad the Italian authorities are looking into this issue in detail as Finmeccanica is an Italian company, the parent company of AgustaWestland," Cameron said.

 

Indien och mutor ... man får nästan uppfattningen när man lyssnar på de indiska myndigheterna att det är de elaka européerna som förleder de stackars oskyldiga indiska affärsmännen i fördärvet.

Edited by JohanGrön
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  • 1 month later...

mmrca01.jpg(Ursäkta skärmdumpen men det är inte jag som gjort den ...)

 

Indien, och HAL, ville ju inte ha kit-montering utan få "riktig" ToT så att de kunde lära sig själva. Dassault vill tydligen något annat. Upphandlingen verkar för övrigt ha inbyggda komplikationer mellan vinnaren och HAL eftersom inga av tillverkarna fick(?) förhandla med dem innan segraren valts.

 

Lutar det åt att det inte blir någon signat kontrakt innan frysningen inför det indiska valet? Oh la-la!

Edited by JohanGrön
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mmrca01.jpgUrsäkta skärmdumpen men det är inte jag som gjort den ...)

 

Indien, och HAL, ville ju inte ha kit-montering utan få "riktig" ToT så att de kunde lära sig själva. Dassault vill tydligen något annat.

 

Lutar det åt att det inte blir någon signat kontrakt innan frysningen inför det indiska valet? Oh la-la!

 

Får Indien källkoderna till flygplanets mjukvara så de verkligen har koll på vad det är de har köpt och kan modifiera?

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Hum. Jag läser det där lite annorlunda. Det handlar inte om ToT, utan om att Fransmännen inte vill ge garantier och utfästelser för planen som byggs av HAL. Enkelt uttryckt - om det är problem med dom plan som HAL bygger, så ska Indiska FMV prata med HAL, inte med Dassault. Och det är HAL som ska sälja dom plan HAL bygger, inte Dassault. Blir det förseningar så är det inte Dassault som Indien ska prata med, utan HAL (om det inte handlar om dom plan Dassault bygger). Kort sagt, Dassault vill inte stå för något ansvar för vad någon annan bygger. Men Indien vill att det ska stå Dassaults namn på alla papper, även om det är HAL som egentligen gör allt jobb.

 

Jag kan nog förstå Dassault. Jag skulle också ogilla att ta ansvar för något som görs där jag inte har någon kontroll.

 

HAL måste ju uppenbarligen få tillgång till den mesta (om inte all) kunskap, om HAL ska bygga planen. Så ToT lär det ju handla om i stor utsträckning. Ansvar är en helt annan femma...

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Sätta ihop flygplan via byggsats har HAL gjort tidigare och för det behövs inte någon fullständig ToT. Tror mer på att Dassault räknar med att HAL kommer att råka ut för avsevärda förseningar som Dassault riskerar att få böta för. Alternativt så vill Dassault generera mer jobb åt sina Indiska partners.

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Hum. Jag läser det där lite annorlunda. Det handlar inte om ToT, utan om att Fransmännen inte vill ge garantier och utfästelser för planen som byggs av

Jag kan nog förstå Dassault. Jag skulle också ogilla att ta ansvar för något som görs där jag inte har någon kontroll.

Jag tror det kan gälla den avlägsna framtiden också, utifall Frankrike pensionerar sina innan Indien.

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http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/defence-ministry-dassault-to-hold-talks-on-aircraft-deal-113040500184_1.html#.UV8gMogQSKM.twitter

 

Dassault och indiska MOD i samtal om deras meningsskiljaktigheter. Dassault vill ha två kontrakt för att skydda sig ekonomiskt gentemot HAL samt vill generera mer jobb åt sin lokala partner Reliance Ind. Limited.

 

Indiska MOD har hittills vägrat godkänna mer än ett kontrakt för Dassault.

 

Vi får se vilken som får sin vilja igenom eller om de löser det med en kompromiss.

 

The Defence Ministry had earlier also rejected Dassault's demand for making it the lead integrator for the 108 aircraft to be produced in India as the RFP for the tender has specifically given that responsibility to the HAL.

 

Recently, Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier had stated that HAL would be its main partner in the contract and there was no confusion on the issue.

 

Edited by JohanGrön
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  • 3 weeks later...

Det nyligen antagna FN-fördraget om vapenförsäljning kan påverka MMRCA :

 

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130423/DEFREG03/304220021/UN-Treaty-Could-Hurt-Indian-Arms-Deals

 

...

 

Defense analysts, meanwhile, were forthright and unanimous that the treaty could affect the big-ticket Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program and the contracted deal to buy Boeing Apache attack helicopters for the Indian Air Force.

 

...

 

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India's New Rules Could Mean More Overseas Tie-ups

[...]

In Paris, the amendment is seen mainly as a bid to win votes in parliamentary elections due in April or May 2014, as there has already been a steady move over time to promote buying from domestic sources, said a defense expert with knowledge of the Indian market. Although the amendment will not affect talks over a planned buy of 126 Rafale fighters, the tenders terms reflected a policy to boost local industry. If India does sign an order with Dassault, only the first 18 units will be built in France, with the remainder assembled from kits and eventually built, from raw materials to components to full systems, in India.In the first stage of negotiations, Dassault has been asked to hand over full documentation of Rafale production plans so Indian authorities can assess the work for local industry. But Dassault is reluctant to hand over the papers, as India also insists on the French company acting as overall prime contractor providing guarantees for program performance. Dassault is concerned over the Indian partners ability to deliver the aircraft to standard, on time and on budget. That single corporate guarantee is seen as deal-breaker, the expert said.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130430/DEFREG03/304300015/India-s-New-Rules-Could-Mean-More-Overseas-Tie-ups

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  • 1 month later...
Air&Cosmos 2362:

 

Page 3:

- MMRCA : According to sources close to the negotiation, the French would be cautious about signing a contract in 2013 in India due to the complexity of the case.

 

 

Det verkar inte bli några påskrifter i år (2013) för Dassault i Indien (MMRCA).

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  • 7 months later...

India's defence minister on Thursday ruled out any prospect of a deal to buy fighter jets from France's Dassault Aviation before national elections - expected by May - due to budgetary constraints.

The announcement eliminates any chance of the current government concluding its biggest defence procurement project and means the French firm faces new uncertainty in its most promising export market.

 

"Because of shortage of money don't expect this (financial) year any final decision or agreement," Defence Minister A.K. Antony told reporters in New Delhi at a news conference.

The financial year runs until the end of March, but elections are then expected shortly afterwards when the ruling Congress party is expected to be voted out of power.

 

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/asia/story/india-unlikely-seal-fighter-jet-deal-dassault-may-polls-minister-20140206

 

"Major procurement can only be possible in the next financial year," A K Antony said at a defence sector trade fair. As of Feb. 1, Antony said, the country has already spent 92 percent of its defence capital budget for the current fiscal year that ends in March.

 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/rafale-jet-deal-to-be-completed-in-fy-2014-15-defence-minister-a-k-antony/articleshow/29942059.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

Nästa år kanske?

Edited by JohanGrön
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